The“Non-Technique” of Marlene Bennett
March 12, 2004
Ratherthan expound on theory, Marlene Bennett (M) asked an ex-client (B) whohadundergone severe trauma-based mind control if she would be willing totalkabout what her experience of therapy had been like. Insisting onanonymity, “B”was entirely candid about how much she gained from Bennett’s“non-technique.”
E: Would you call what the two of you did“deprogramming”?
M: I call it therapy or healing from trauma.Deprogramming was part of it.
E: How would you define deprogramming, and howdoes it differ from other types of therapy?
M: Forme,deprogramming is trying to turn around anything that was forced as away toprevent a person from getting in touch with their past or rememberingtheir ownmemories.
E: So it could be ritual abuse, satanic ritualabuse, government military mind control programming -- all of whichhave incommon the intention to make a person not remember, as well as send theperson’s mind in a direction other than what they might have chosen --in otherwords, to take their freedom from them. Does that sound right?
M: I would agree with that.
E: So deprogramming seems to have to do withunlocking and disengaging someone’s intent from another person? “B,”how do yousee deprogramming and programming?
B: Programming is all about having somethingdone to you, so it’s dehumanizing in its very nature. It’s about thingsbeingdone to you and basically breaking you down to the point that you losetouchwith that sense of your core self -- it just kind of breaks it off.Deprogramming is not the word I would use because I feel like my wholefeelinghas really been about letting go of people doing to me and learning todo formyself. Deprogramming is sort of like having the safety and support toknow myown story in a safe environment. So it’s more about unfolding who Ireally amand letting the truth out. Just hearing about people deprogrammingother peoplesounds like programming to me. [Laughs] It’s sort of acontradictoryterm because the last thing I needed was more being done to me. Plentyhad beendone to me of a psychological nature already. I wanted permission to bewho Iwas and let my truth come out and have it honored, whether that wasaround theprogramming or any other aspect of what was happening for me in myhealing.
E: Perhaps deprogramming might be compared todisengaging a clutch or a mechanical process of some sort, so thathealing canbegin to take hold.
B: Isee my processmore like a giant ball of yarn that is completely tangled in a bigknot.Healing was more about untangling threads that prevented me fromgetting morefreedom of movement within, internally, so that deprogramming andhealingdidn’t necessarily come one before the other. It was a more circularthingwhose order was internally driven. What truth did I need to know at onepointin time to allow me to move ahead and do what I could in my life today?Theinner process was already inside of me and wasn’t driven from theoutside.
E: Perhaps a therapist is like a midwifedelivering a baby: the woman delivers the baby, the midwife is there tohelpthe process.
B: Yeah, remind her of things to do -- breathe,that kind of thing. But the direction -- since it’s really all aboutreclaimingyourself -- has to come from within, and what a relief to discover thatthereis a direction in there.
E: What is your history, “B”? What have you beenthrough?
B: Well, I definitely was involved in governmentprogramming from about age two through at least eighteen. I never gottotallyclear on the dates. As far as how the programming was defined, let’ssay Iconsider myself a military vet without benefits. And of coursedysfunctional
familiesare the kind of places where people [ideal for that sort ofprogramming] aredrawn from, so I had my own personal history, as well.
E: Was your family military?
B: Not on the surface, at least, but there aremilitary connections.
E: Could your family be described as amultigenerational incest family?
B: Yeah, I think that would work. [Laughs]
E: What about satanic ritual abuse?
B: Not so much. I think there’s a little bit,but it was almost the way some people are Christians and go to churchonly onEaster. So yeah, I was baptized in the blood, but it wasn’t a big partof myfamily. It was there in the history and so of course multiplicity wasin thehistory. Certainly, there was contact with the military which allowsfor peopleto be screened for, then to be followed and tracked. I think that’s howmy dadgot connected for his stint. He went to college on the GI bill, so Iimagine hewas followed from that point on.
E: Because of his multiplicity?
B: Yeah, absolutely. Boot camp is programming,right? So it’s a great place to scan people.
E: And the multiplicity is useful for whatreason?
B: All sorts of things. It’s about credibility.I also think that a lot of people who are into that stuff -- it’s theirownprivate addiction. Programming is not necessarily that efficient. Ittakes anincredible amount of energy to program someone to that degree, so theymust begetting off on it. They pretend that, ‘Oh, it’s spy games,’ but it’sreallythem jerking themselves off, in my opinion. It’s not an efficient wayto dothings, there’s much better ways, but this country isn’t about that.It’spower-hungry and addicted to power.
E: So your programming took place between twoand eighteen. What happened when you were eighteen?
B: Eventually, you become harder to control.You’re not at home and people slip away. You leave the programeventually andthere’s newer, younger blood, and new people come in to do theprogramming --there’s a constant turnover.
E: But eighteen is young to let someone slipaway.
B: I actually know numerous people who aroundthat time got out.
E: What years are we talking about?
B: For me, that would have been 1962 through1978 or 1980. There might have been a little stuff after that point,but Ithink it got harder to get hold of me.
E: And they let you slip away?
B: Yeah. People can force you to do things,obviously -- I mean, that’s what this whole thing is about -- and ittakes anincredible amount of energy to continue that, and it gets harder andharder.The same thing that made me a good candidate for programming made iteasy forme to break away, because I’m an incredibly strong person with anincrediblystrong life force. And it’s dangerous to be involved with those folks! [Laughs]So once I had a way to get away --
E: Did you get away through marriage?
B: No. I left home and quit responding to callsbecause usually people contact you through calls. Then the programmingstartedto come undone. It’s not like I knew consciously that I was beingcontacted,but the parts of me that were being contacted didn’t respond.
E: Why do you think they weren’t responding?
B: Because we really didn’t want to die, andthat’s been my truth my whole life. However effective the programmingwas, Ididn’t hate myself as much as people intended for me to, and that’s whyit’ssuch an inefficient way of doing things to begin with. It eventuallycomesunraveled. It’s really egotistical of the people involved to think thattheycan prevent everybody from telling their story the whole time. Peoplearealways talking their truth one way or another. Like my mom at thedinner table!She always used to tell all about how things were all dysfunctional andmessedup in our home, but she would tell it in a dissociated way. ‘Isn’t itinteresting how that little girl came in and threw dirt in Dad’s workshed? Shemust be mad at her parents’ -- that kind of thing, when it’s all aboutDadbeing at it again. She’s telling the truth at the dinner table in herown way;it never got snuffed out of her. Some things can’t be snuffed.
E: Are you in touch with your parents?
B: I wasn’t in contact with them for many years,and now I am again.
E: How is that?
B: It’s fine. They’re old now, in theirseventies. It’s very grounding and keeps me in today. It’s just usefulfor meto [be in contact].
E: And with your siblings? Were they programmed?
B: Not as much, but yeah there was some stuffthat happened with them, so it’s uncomfortable, like the family historywhichwasn’t so... sweet.
E: Have you come out to your siblings about yourprocess?
B: Not in any big way. Basically, what I’ve saidto them is, ‘If you want to know, all you have to do is look inside,’andthat’s where I’ve left it. With my parents, if they didn’t havecompassion andreal caring when I was a little girl, I know now it’s not going tohappen inthis
lifetime.I’ve seen healing on their paths, it’s just different from mine. Mysister toohas healing in her religion, but it doesn’t involve knowing her story.
E: Can you have a genuine religious life withoutbeing genuine?
B: I think you can be genuine in the present, inthe moment, to whatever ability -- I mean, we all have our limitations,soyeah, I think so. There’s ways that programming or any kind of traumathathasn’t been dealt with leaves personal blind spots. Everybody has blindspots,it’s just a matter of degree.
E: And your other sibling is a brother?
B: I have two younger brothers.
E: And how are they?
B: They’re... I don’t know, they felt like theywere part of a whole other family. I don’t know how involved they werein thestuff going on at home. Of course, you’re taught to perpetrate whenyour daddoes, so in that sense... Whether they were taken out to be programmed,I don’tthink so.
E: Why do you think you were chosen over theothers for military programming?
B: Probably because I’m female, and because ofmy personality profile. [Programming is] very scientific. I mean, theyscreenpeople in the military. There’s all sorts of data involved. If you’vebeentortured continuously for the last however many years, people arekeeping trackof it, so it’s a pretty well-known process.
E: Did your father prepare you?
B: I wouldn’t say that what he did was toprepare me. I think he’s a perp.
E: Did he abuse your sister, too?
B: Absolutely. He also got victims in exchange.
E: He likes children?
B: No, he actually likes killing women, buthe’ll never get caught because he has government connections. I thinkthere aremany people like him. They have habits, and then they get documented,and thenyou’re part of the family. [Laughs]
E: Do you think he was trained by your paternalgrandfather?
B: Oh gosh, I’m not entirely sure about thispart of the story. I think there was some cult stuff in the family,probablyfrom my paternal grandmother’s family. But because of when he grew up,he wassent away from home to work at a farm somewhere when he was five, and Iknowsome shit went down then...
E: And your mother?
B: She had a lot of sexual abuse in her home.She’s not a multiple, but she didn’t have any choices. My dad wasreally a veryscary person, so she just stayed under water the whole time. He doesn’thavethat internal conflict.
E: Was their marriage set up?
B: They met at college. He was on the GI bill --I’m sure he’d already been tagged as somebody useful.
E: So the programming you went through from twoto eighteen -- do you think the military rented you from your parents,or didthey purchase you?
B: I would say there was a certain amount ofextortion: ‘We have pictures, we have this information on you that willgetreleased if you don’t’ -- that kind of thing. Also, of course, I thinkalmosteverybody as a child being programmed does a certain amount ofmaintaining thatkind
ofextortion-type structure by participating sexually with adults.Children aretaken to the big functions -- I think extortion is how they keep itunder lock.
E: And that would answer the people who ask,“How could they have kept such a secret all these years?”
B: My answer to that is fear and mass denial,because on some level everybody knows the truth about what’s happeningin thiscountry. It’s like part of this country is this really big scarydictatorship,and most everybody knows it on some level. They’re just glad it’s nothappeningto them and so they keep it down, keep it down by not seeing it. Ithink itcomes out in the fierceness with which certain situations call forscapegoating: ‘Oh, that person’s awful, we’ve got to put their head onthechopping block and execute them. We won’t have any of that in thiscountry.’
E: Like Gary Ridgeway?
B: Those guys are cult guys gone bad, createdfor a purpose but then go wild. They’re out killing on their own fortheir ownpleasure, when they’re only supposed to be working for The Man. That’swhat I’msaying. Even the sociopaths are not under total control. Maybe it helpstocreate a climate of fear, but they’re rodeo cowboys off the program,man. [Laughs]
E: You are very adept at scoping out an aerialview on how the whole mind control thing works.
B: It depends on where you meet survivors. Ifyou’re meeting people in a situation where things are still being doneto them,they’re not really on their healing path yet or claiming their ownpower, soit’s hard to see the big picture under those circumstances. But I knowpeoplewho have a sense of the big picture. But for whatever reason, I don’tunderstand what’s happening with some people for whom the victim rolebecomes alifestyle. They may have good reasons not to go there [childhoodmemories], sothey just stay where they are and do the best they can without lettinggo ofthat identity.
E: Did you live near big military bases?
B: Yes, I’ve lived near bases. My dad’s work wasaffiliated with the military-industrial complex. But where does thegovernmentend and the corporate end of the military begin? Also, the mob. Theyall linktogether, so when are you dealing with which entity? [Laughs]Theprogramming was definitely on bases.
E: You were always moving?
B: We moved a lot when I was younger, but notlater. Then, I was moved around quite a bit in terms of programming,doing jobsor being programmed or both.
E: Was yours a typical spy job? Were youprogrammed for sex, as well?
B: Mostly violence, killing, but some sex, ofcourse, including sex for my handlers. [Laughs] It’s part ofwhat theycan do, they’re so power-hungry. Sexual abuse is a great way to stripaway yoursense of self-worth, which is also part of the programming. But hey,they getoff on it,
too --isn’t that just a double bonus? [Laughs]
E: Were you programmed for extraordinary memorycapacities, too?
B: Idon’t thinkso. I was involved in violence, a lot of times war crimes. I spent timeinVietnam and Central America, and locally I’d be called out. There was acontactat my high school. I was also used for mob jobs.
I think that Vietnam taught them a lot --you know, the dangerous villages and the kids with bombs on them. Ithink theywanted their own dangerous women and kids [laughs], so thereyou go.
E: Whenyou were intherapy, how did you deal with all the memories of killing?
B: That took me the longest. I think the hardestthing about it is that I learned to enjoy it by the end. Fortunately, Inever gotaddicted. I was never one of those people who wanted to do it outsidebecause Ihad a lot of internal conflict, too. How could I deal with the factthat
part ofme was proud of my skill, and the other part of me really felt that itwentagainst everything inside of me at a tremendously deep level? That wasthe gistof my [therapeutic] work. That was the big thing that I needed to findsomekind of ease with.
E: How did you find peace?
B: [Sighs] I came to accept that I was a humanbeing and that we all come here with potentials. I had another friendwho wentthrough a phase where she was fascinated with feral children abandonedand thenraised by wolves who would think of themselves as wolves. Thinkingabout thosechildren and my experience – “our” personalities are so malleable, andthere’ssomething underneath them, too, that can be shaped in so many differentways. Ireally got actualized in an extremely negative way, in a way that mostpeopledon’t experience in this life. That happened, but I also have otherpotentialsto be actualized. So from this point on, it’s really about choice andwhat Ichoose. Those things didn’t feel like choice to me. You really canforcesomeone for a period of time to do things they don’t want to do, thatgoagainst their core -- at least if you get them when they’re children.In someways the programmers were inside of me and I kind of had to go outsideof myview of what life is in a bigger sense. It’s really about choice, andnow Ichoose to be in this moment.
E: When Kathleen Sullivan, in her bookUnshackled, talked about dealing with the killing she had beenprogrammed todo, she realized that the part of her that had done it could beaccepted forthe skill and courage it had, and incorporated into herself as part ofherself.
B: It’s part of me, it’s me, it’s part of mypotential, it’s actually an actualized part of my potential. I have alot ofblood on my hands. In a way, during that time I was a gun that someonechose tofire because they had so dehumanized me that they made me into aweapon. Andyet I am a human, and so a human being was there, as well. Given all ofthat,am I going to go on? Knowing that I have such a strong life force,which why Iwas perfect for the job, I can put that self to use for me now and say,‘Okay,now I get to choose how I use my skills and talents.’
M: Itwas painfulto watch “B” go through that part of therapy (getting in touching withaspectsof having to kill). I believe that it is important for clients to tryto take astep back from what they did and honor themselves for what they had todo tosurvive. Only when the client can appreciate and thank that part ofthemselvescan one truly heal.
B: I went to a conference put on by a ritualabuse survivors newsletter, where all the assassins got together [laughs]and talked. It was really a healing moment to be in a room of peopletalkingabout how to embrace that sphere.
Thereare manyvets out there in this world and we’re making more every day who’llhave todeal with the same things. That’s the way it is, but other vets getbenefitsand I get none. [Laughs] Where’s my pension?
E: All of those experimentees... What was doneto you was for a government program and experimental, as well.
B: The horrendous thing about it is that that’sjust the surface. For each one of me, hundreds and hundreds of peoplehave died-- experimented to death, tortured to death -- to see at what pointthey breakand then go past it. So many unreported war crimes and torture anddeath go
intoevery American who gets this treatment.
E: Among your memories, did you encounter actualNazis during programming on military bases, Dr. Black, Dr. Green, etc.?
B: One of the programmers was Dr. Abernacht. Idon’t know if this name has ever come up anywhere, and it might be afalse one-- he’s a person I’ll remember. I know that so much of it did gettransferredover from all of the doctors in the camps during World War Two --
E: Operation Paperclip.
B: That was such a huge time: deals were struckwith the Mob and all those creeps from the camps. And what funded it?Sex workand drugs -- still does to this day. And arms. Sell arms and buy morearms tosquelch the people we sold arms to. [Laughs]
E: Indeed, you have to have a good sense ofhumor in order to live in this country.
B: Or a good sense of denial. [Laughs again.]
E: The assassin, the part that kills, brings upthe issue of integration. Among therapists are those who think you havetoreintegrate and those who think you don’t and can just set up adialogue amongthe different parts. What is your experience of integration?
B: Once again, for me my healing isn’t reallyabout therapists and their dialogue about what they’re doing. That’stheirproblem. I love Marlene because her ego is not in the picture. It’s notabouther and how fancy she is with some kind of sick fascination keepingtrack ofhow many personalities I have so she can put it in a book -- all thosekinds ofobjectifying behaviors which I’m an expert at. I know an objectifyingbehaviorwhen I see it because I was the ultimate object. That’s what trauma andprogramming are all about: the ultimate object, stripping away allhumanity. Ihave integrated different parts, for sure, but it’s been a naturalthing and noone did something to me and said, ‘Now, you need to integrate because Iknowwhat’s best for you, being that I’m the expert.’
E: Have all your parts integrated on their own,or --
B: I doubt that we’re completely integrated. Myhealing is about what I need to do to be fully present in my lifetoday. I’mnot going to work through every last memory -- there’s been way toomuch! I’veworked through what I need to in order to have my life today. I don’twant mystory to be only about these sicko’s. No, thank you. I would like tolive forsome things I want to do for me while I’m here -- what I came here todo, nottheir agenda.
E: Do you think there are any personalitiesinside of you that you haven’t heard from?
B: Ohhhh, possibly. I feel pretty comfortablethat I’ve looked at the -- Stuff continues to happen, it’s so crazyliving inthis world, but it’s not so much about some story I don’t know about,it’s moreabout the context of all of it and feeling a part of living in theworld -- youknow, that legacy. For example, having this conversation, needing forit to beconfidential. Here it is, first from my childhood so much was stolen,then manyyears of therapy stolen -- a huge piece of my story. It’s not a hugepart of myconversation with most people because I would disappear as soon as mystoryshowed up. My story would be so big and flashy that I wouldn’t bethere, and Idon’t want to deal with that. But then that creates tension andconflict.
E: What does?
B: Not being able to -- It’s basically, are youout or are you not out? Like if I go to a job interview, am I going tosay,‘Oh, I was working on my government programming memories these last fewyears,how about hiring me?’ You’re talking about living in the world, findingwork, makingconnections, being treated respectfully by other people and not havingthemassume if there’s a conflict that it’s about your history -- that kindofthing.
E: I would imagine that you don’t tell manypeople --
B: Exactly.
E: -- because a lot of people wouldn’t believeyou in the first place.
B: Exactly, you’d lose credibility. So it keepsyou silent. Trauma survivors of all sorts experience tension aroundoppression.Just being out about sexual abuse, you pay a price. It’s a huge secretbecauseit’s so terrifying to people that they’d rather shut you out than hearaboutit. More than that, I think people can believe it but then they kind ofturnyou into a freak show just to get some distance. ‘Oh, aren’t you aninterestingspecimen.’ Then, it’s not so close to them.
E: Do you know many people who’ve been throughthis in your local area?
B: Uh-huh. I have a network, for sure. It’samazing how people find each other, but they do. In fact, if you’regoing toput anything in, such an important part of healing is to get thatcommunitygoing where you can be -- it’s invaluable. It’s also a great place togetfeedback about your therapy. Psychiatrists programmed me for years.You’re in avulnerable place when you start in on your process and are looking forhelp.There are a lot of people living on the fringes whose intentions aren’tnecessarily so good. It’s important to have community you can checktherapistsout with and get information about good ways to get a therapist.
E: These people you’ve met locally -- did youmeet them
serendipitously,find them on the internet, or -- ?
B: One example is the 12-step food program --one person meets another...
E: Is it a wide spectrum -- housewives, officeworkers, professionals?
B: I tend to get connected more with people whoare younger than me. It seems like they sprouted sooner, partly becauseof thewhole therapy movement. People were getting in touch with their storiessoonerbecause they had some place to go with them. Not everybody ends upbeing yourfriend. I have some really wonderful relationships through thatconnection, butyou have to have something else in common. [Laughs]
E: Are there many therapists around your area --
B: No, it’s extremely difficult to get goodtherapy. That’s why it’s extremely important to find someone with heartwho isable to see you as a human being because you need that if you want todo yourwork -- that’s the most important thing, someone who can see you as aperson. Iknow therapists bring skills to it, but if they can keep their ego outand holdthe vision of you as a human being and not a specimen, you’ll getbetter. Yourhealing will happen for you. Be wary of people who are doing all sortsoflittle gibbedy-gabbedy things because they’re into it for their ego andnotyour recovery. It’s easy to get fooled, especially early on becauseyou’relike, ‘Somebody help me, this horrible thing happened and I want theworld tostop, and everybody owes me!’ [Laughs] There are people happyto do itall for you, and those people aren’t your friends.
E: Marlene, what would you say your‘non-technique’ is? Many therapists siphonthese cases off as fast as they can because of fear of lawsuits, threateningcalls, etc. So I knowthat you must be very committed in order to put yourself in harm’s wayto somedegree, and yet I understand that you really have no technique. Is thattrue?
M: Exactly. To begin with, I decided that if Iwas going to do this work I would have no fear, that somehow I would beguidedthrough it spiritually, and that I would be protected. Basically, Ihave nofear and will not get caught up in fear. So if I decide to take aclient on, Iwill do it without fear.
E: Howdo youmanage to have no fear? Also, you mentioned the word ‘spiritual.’ Whatdo youmean?
M: I just believe that I’m protected and Ibelieve that with all my heart. I believe there are bigger forces thanmyself.I believe that, and let it go. I’m here to help human beings heal, andit is myjob to help them find their way. When I do a consultation with them, Iwilltell them, ‘I do not know what needs to happen, but there is a part ofyou thatknows what needs to happen.’ Basically, that is their subconscious. Myjob isto give them the resources to assist the subconscious and to follow thesignsand directions and little things the subconscious will bring up toguide themalong the way.
E: I see on your wall that you are a licensedhypnotherapist. Do you use questions, listening, and hypnotherapy togiveguidance to the subconscious of the person to heal themselves?
M: Probably the most important thing I use islistening. I would say that I listen with my heart and not just myears. Ilisten with 360 degrees. I listen on a lot of layers and levels. I tryto nothave any one idea of what needs to happen. I attempt to be open. Ithink myexperience and education in hypnotherapy are extremely helpful, and alot oftimes I won’t work directly with hypnotherapy but my experience with itcan beextremely helpful in that it can be done in a certain way that theperson neveractually goes under hypnosis but can help facilitate doing a lot ofthings tomake connections. It can be used in a lot of different ways to helpfacilitatesafety and connections with memories and stay connected with the safetyandsecurity of the here and now while a person is also connecting tomemories.
E: By hypnosis, you’re not talking about deeptrance?
M: It may or may not be.
E: So, “B,” how can you trust someone enough togo under hypnosis?
B: Well, I don’t think I really did much[ofthat] with Marlene. When I came here, I came from therapy that Iconsidered tobe inappropriate and not useful for me. So for a year, I don’t think Ididanything. I had to make Marlene prove that she wasn’t trying to getanythingfrom me. I just sat here hour after hour to see if she’d get upset. [Laughs]I talked but if she had an idea about something, I’d say, ‘No.’ [Laughsagain.] Then finally, I guess, she passed my test because I couldsee thatit wasn’t about her making something happen so she could feel goodabout whatshe was doing, but it was really about what I needed to do, and itwasn’t justlip service. It’s easy to say that, it’s another thing to have theresources toactually offer that to people. It’s a wonderful giftand I feel very fortunate that I got hooked up with Marlene.
Iguess what I’ddone before that point that got me out of my difficult therapysituation wasthat I had made a commitment to myself to heal. This took me throughand out ofthat place where I could eventually see the healing wasn’t happening. Iwasconnected with other survivors and
I wasable to talk to them about my experience and have validation for theassessmentthat it wasn’t a healthy place.
[Memories of] people would come up, but forthem to come up it had to be a co-conscious event. I don’t think I everlosttime in Marlene’s presence, as it were. I wasn’t willing to do that andI don’tthink it would have served me. I also think I came to trust my systemas awhole and realize that even in those awful circumstances it alwaysworked tohelp me through things, so I just set it to help me through my healing,too.What would be useful about me dissociating so completely from myselfthat Iwasn’t in therapy with as much of me as possible? What healing couldreallyhappen under those circumstances? I know sometimes people have partsthat comeout without conscious awareness of “losing time,” but I think it’s muchmoreuseful if parts come out together. Marlene would invite me by saying,‘Do youwant to go and look inside?’ That is often what she would ask. She’dstart offlike, ‘How’s it going?’ and I might say, ‘I’m upset with my cat,’ orwhatever surfacestuff, but then we’d take time to work with the invitation to lookinside andsee what was up.
E: [To Marlene] Is that the point at which therewould perhaps be a light trance?
M: A lot of times it could be taking time to getquiet and relaxed and go find that feeling inside, and still stayconnected tothe security of the present. People who experience this kind of traumaareexperts at dissociating. I don’t have to do that for them! I don’t haveto helpthem get into a trance; they do that on their own. So me doing it forthem istotally counterproductive. Having the ability to do it on their own isproductive because it empowers them, and that’s the whole reason forbeing intherapy.
B: That’s something now I can do for myself. Ifsomething’s up, all I need to do is stop and go look inside. I don’thave to goto therapy to find a savior. This is such a huge difference. Whenyou’ve had somuch trauma, it gets back to that old rescuer-victim-perpetratortriangle. I’vebeen all around that triangle for years. Healing is about letting go ofthosepatterns, and that means I don’t need fixing.
E: And you had started to remember before youever came to Marlene?
B: Absolutely.
E: [To Marlene] Does the ease with which someonecan dissociate reveal that there might be more than meets the eye?
M: No. Everybody goes into light trance easily.
E: I’ve noticed how easily I go into a lighttrance when I drive -- probably not the best time to do so. But here’sbeen alot of criticism of hypnosis, especially the old image of ‘You aresleepy,count backward from ten’ -- the absolute power image of a man standingoveryou.
M: Exactly.
B: That’s programming, not deprogramming.
E: So a counterimage might be, ‘Relax and go tothe feelings’?
M: It’s similar. It attempts to entitle a personto be able to stay connected to the feeling of security in the here andnow andbe able to feel more empowered to try to see their truth. As far as thedeprogramming,it’s being able to assist them to connect with their own truth.Sometimes,there are things that have happened, things that have been said anddone andforced on them to try to disconnect them from their own truth. My jobis justto help facilitate them in being able to connect up with their owntruth.
B: Marlene can’t give that truth to anybody,just like I can’t give Marlene her truth. My truth is inside of me.It’s notpossible for another human being to do that for somebody else, but theycanassist. Most of the time, the programming was melded in with otherthings.
E: What do you mean? Give me an example.
B: In order for me to be programmable, I had tolearn to hate my life force, my love of life. I learned to hate itbecause itwas used against me, so I was ashamed of how much I loved life. If Ihadn’twanted to be here so desperately, I wouldn’t have been programmed. Imean, I’vedone things to stay alive; otherwise, I wouldn’t have been a successfulcandidate. So you begin to hate the basic things about yourself, andthat makesyou even more susceptible to suggestions about who you are. Self-hatredis thelegacy of all programming, because it’s not safe to be angry outwardlyso youturn it inward. Sometimes,there were specific things like little switch points in my mind,triggers --especially at one point in time when I was dealing with a lot of theelectrocution that was done as a part of my programming. There wereplaces Itraveled to that were just weirdly mechanical and seemed more than justprogramming. So weird! I remember one time falling into this placewhere mynerves were just wiped out, shot.
E: You could see an event, but --
B: I couldn’t see it because it was erased -- anerased spot in my brain. That was programming that felt like thesynapses wererewired a little bit. I don’t know what Marlene did; I think she justsatthere, probably kind of bored. [Laughs]
M: In asituationlike that, I just do a little bit of relaxation so the subconscious cangoback, connect, reroute, rewire, reconnect, and do whatever needs to bedone toerase anything that’s been said or done to reconnect. There are certaintermsthat I use...
B: It seemed like you were constantly invitingme to go deep within myself to figure out what I needed to do so that Icouldbe more fully present in my life today. I think you may have useddifferentwording, but basically that was the invitation over and over againbecausethere’s always a new piece of work to be done. And just to have awitness,because there’s so much pain. Just to have a witness there to listenand seethe devastation...
E: Is memory work utterly separate from theinitial work of deprogramming? There are portions of programming whichseemvery mechanical.
B: That is such a small piece of my healing. Ithink people get fascinated [with the mechanics of programming]. It’sfine forthem to be fascinated, and yet I don’t think that’s really where thehealinghappens. I disagree that you need to do deprogramming first.
E: I’ve never understood how memories can bekept separate from deprogramming, since the memories and feelings are,as yousay, melded to it.
B: To me, it’s just more objectification. I’m afull human being first and foremost. My “system” did things to survivethetrauma, and the reason I was able to become a multiple is because ofhealth andstrength, not disease. It’s an interesting thing: the people who aren’table tosplit either end up dead or crazy and dysfunctional. [Multiplicity] isthe bestyou can do in hard circumstances. That’s what I did.
M: And for me to take any kind of theory like[memories and feelings being separate from deprogramming] and try topigeon-hole people in it is just so contradictory to me working with anindividual and individual experiences.
B: And it’s not as interesting. I heard someonesay trauma makes people all alike, but healing makes us allindividuals. Ithink there’s a lot of truth in that. The trauma itself can becategorized, butif you’re really working with healing, healing is about people becomingwhothey are or their potential, right? Reclaiming who they came here tobe, andletting go of other people’s agendas.
E: Marlene, is there a pattern to someonegetting to the point where they can individually heal themselves?Trauma endsup being a pattern that indicates a dysfunction, whereas the healingprocesshas to be individual. Do all clients have a different way ofapproaching healing,or do they all follow certain specified stages?
M: The healing process can vary for each person,but generally involves memories - understanding how the trauma impactedhim orher, getting in touch with the emotions from the experiences andprocessing theintensity of their energy, integrating a more positive way of thinkingaboutoneself in those situations, and learning healthy ways to cope withdifficultemotions are general stages.
E: “B” sounds to me like someone who was highlymotivated and really working. You must get clients who don’t move asfast or asconsciously.
B: [Laughs] I was so angry anddistrustful that the trust phase lasted a long time for me.
M: [To B.] I must admit, you were one of my mostchallenging clients. [Laughs also.]
E: Marlene, you’ve mentioned that you have toturn away victims of ritual abuse and programming in order to protectyourtime. How big is this problem? It seems huge to me, much more huge thanI everimagined when I first became involved.
M: It is.
E: Are we talking about hundreds of thousands ofpeople?
B: We have to -- enough to really impact thewhole psyche of America. It’s there and everybody knows it’s there onsomelevel, and that’s why it’s so powerful when George W. Bush pulls hisfear card.Why is that so effective? Why is everybody so afraid? It’s not becauseof 9/11-- that was an awful event but that’s not why all that fear is outthere.
M: Just look at the number of people who have beenin the military and are in the military; we’re not just talking aboutthepeople who’ve been affected by [invasive mind control] programming.It’s huge!
E: I’ve heard from a couple of survivors thatcomputer and satellite link-ups for individual mind control programmingare nowless time- and energy-consuming methods of invasive mind control. Thisdevelopment makes me wonder, how broadly are they are using individualmindcontrol? How deeply has this technology penetrated society?
B: It’s everywhere, but it’s not everything.That’s the other part of it. Think about how the mass media functions.When youlisten to it, you feel really isolated, give up and think, ‘Oh,everybodythinks this and if you don’t, you’re messed up.’ That’s not reality.Everybodydoesn’t think whatever it is, at all! It’s just out there in theairwaves.There are plenty of people in the military and government who arepayingattention and working hard to operate on what the surface principles ofthecountry allegedly are -- not a dictatorship, not a military police
state.They’re probably the majority, and yet there’s a lot of other peopleoperatingby other rules -- and sometimes people are operating in both. [Laughs]
E: I perceive that there may be a lot of goodpeople in government, but they’re being compromised.
B: They’re letting their fear decide for them.And if you think about what it takes to get elected on a national level-- wedon’t really have [democratic elections] there anymore because it’s soexpensive that you have to have corporate sponsorship to do it. Thisdoesn’tget talked about because corporations own all the media. That’s a typeofprogramming in itself, and everyone is exposed to it. Then you look atthehistory curriculum taught in public schools -- that’s programming foreveryone,too.
E: In a way, human culture itself isprogramming.
B: It is! But that’s part of the humanexperience and is not necessarily negative. What’s humane is that ourwork inthis life is to program ourselves and become who we are intended to be.Sure,there’s going to be some social overlay, but if it’s so intrusive thatpeoplecan’t develop as humans, as individuals, then we’re really robbingourselves ofso many resources. How many things don’t happen in this country becauseofprogramming? It costs us so much. We could all be wealthy if we stoppeddoingthat crap to ourselves. The whole world could be so much happier.
E: Can people heal without spiritual principlesor spirituality? I have noted that many survivors get involved inreligion, butI’m asking about spirituality, not religion, which can easily be a formofprogramming itself, despite its authentic core.
B: That’s another one of the ironic things aboutthe programming. If you kill someone -- I mean, I’ve been dead severaltimes,right? You kill someone, you go someplace, you do something, you getsomestrength to go on and you get some knowing. If the humanity around youfailsyou, which for a kid is being programmed and having an abusive home,you breakthrough the surface fabric and land someplace. You don’t just keepfallingforever, you land someplace. So you live with a knowing about that.
E: Would you be willing to share one suchexperience?
B: You hear people talk about their after-deathexperiences. I have a knowing deep down inside me that kept me goingand waspart of my life force, that I had stuff to do after this. I couldn’thave keptgoing without it, although not on a conscious level, what I call mytopsidelife. But it was always there with me. It’s not so much one experienceas apart of being human. It doesn’t mean that a person necessarily believesin aspecific God or something, but I think we are spiritual creatures. Soof courseyou become more open to that part of yourself. But would I have gone toatherapist who had a specific spiritual agenda for me? No. I thinkMarlene’sability to be here and listen in that deep way is the work she’d doneoutsideof here, but it was never overt [during therapy].
M: I think it’s so important for a person todefine [spirituality] for themselves, do whatever it is that is truefor them.I also believe that it is such an important part of therapy andsomething thatis very seldom really worked with in therapy because it’s souncomfortable fortherapists to talk about. They do not know how to talk aboutspirituality in ageneric way.
E: -- in the way that’s actually appropriate.
M: Yes.
B: Marlene invited me to find for myself what Ibelieved -- empowered me to grow in that area by saying, ‘So, what doyoubelieve? What’s true for you?’
M: In any situation, I’d invite her – I’d say,‘Okay, I would like to invite you to take a different perspective, ahigherperspective. Crawl way up high on a very tall ladder so you see thisfrom ahigher spiritual perspective. What would that be?’
In this context, I’d like to talk aboutpossession. It fits in spiritually, and it also fits in regardingdeprogrammingand doing things to the client. Any time anything is done to theclient, ittakes away the power of the client; and anytime you do something to theclient,you’re assuming that you know more than the client. This will alwaysmeantrouble because you can never assume that you know more. When you’reassumingthat this person is possessed, if you assume wrongly and you do adepossession[exorcism] and that happens to be a part of them that has had tofragment off,a part of them that has had to kill, a part of them that has had to bepart ofa demonic ritual and take on that personality in order to be a part ofthatritual, and it comes time to do memory work, you are doing that clientadisservice.
B: In fact, it’s really reinforcing theprogramming to do that. It’s a judgment: ‘I’m in a position to decidewhatabout you is okay and what part of you we need to get rid of.’
M: ‘I know more about you and what needs tohappen than you do.’ And that is not okay. That is not helping toempower theclient.
B: I heard you getting at this a little bitearlier: Sometimes a survivor is heavily into their victim trance, andso wesend out invitations for people to fix us because we don’t want to takeresponsibility. But it doesn’t matter how beautifully or touching orpuppy-loveor desperate that invitation is, it is not helping someone to respondto thatmessage with fixing. I think people really get confused by that. Whataboutsomebody who’s really hurting? [The answer is:] If you can’t believethatpeople have the capacity within them, then you shouldn’t be in thebusiness ofhealing. People have to really believe that, and yet it’s so seductivetothink, ‘Oh, but just this once I could help them because they’re solost, andthey’ll thank me so much.’ It’s really taking away their power. Andeveryperson who does it gets built up just a little bit -- an energy vampirething.Very, very seductive.
E: The whole idea of banishing the one with thememories is deadly.
M: It is, and so sad, too. Here’s this personinside who was willing to take on this most horrendous role in order toprotect, and then they’re banished. So now, in order to heal, theclient has togo off in the ozone somewhere to recall the memories...
E: Can you recall banished parts?
M: Well, it’s possible, but then it means justthat much more trauma --
B: Because the depossession was actually aviolation. I was thinking earlier, when things start to open up, you’reopeningup to your truth, a natural process. You don’t have to go to someone.If youhave safety, you start to remember. Like a plant, if you have enoughair,light, and water, you start to heal and it starts to come out. This isa reallyvulnerable time because you’ve got all your dysfunction helping youmake yourdecisions. Also, multiples are time-travelers and can call on a futureself tohelp them -- they don’t have to believe in anything but that -- justcall onyour future self to help you navigate through
E: Regarding possession and demons versusmemories belonging to dissociated parts, does it matter what you thetherapistpersonally believe?
M: No.
B: I think that’s the whole thing about leavingthe ego at the door. If that person comes in with their faith, that’spart oftheir tools. If they’re a Christian, they can bring that to theirhealing. Itdoesn’t matter if Marlene shares that faith or not because it’s notabout herand what she believes. But she has a gift of supporting them as theyfind outwho they are. They don’t have to be a miniature Marlene to benefit.